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我思故我在?哲学探究与普及之三:哲学一直讨论的问题(2)

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发表于 2010-8-2 10:44 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式

哲学一直讨论的问题(2):物质VS心灵


在文艺作品中,灵魂一直是至高无上的存在,它承载着我们的性格、记忆、意识等心理状态,所以被认为是非物质、更长久、代表我们心灵的存在。对心灵与物质关系的认识分为三种理论流派:心物二元论、唯心论、唯物论。


二元论认为心灵和物质是两种截然不同的存在,而唯心论和唯物论分别认为对方不是真的存在,只是自身的作用,是依赖自身的。一开始接触的时候,我们大多数人容易接受二元论,物质无疑是存在的,而意识和物质虽然不同但也存在,毕竟我们有自己独特的性格、思维方式,是意识让我们与众不同,同样也很重要。这样问题就来了,意识和物质是独立的存在,但它们也有关联,那么它们是怎样相互作用的呢?


对于这个问题,很多数学家很感兴趣。


笛卡尔认为心灵是一种可以独立存在、不占据空间的非物理的实体,他又认为心物可以直接产生相互作用,地点就在脑部的松果体里,这时一般人都不能接受一个完全非物理的心灵能够因果上作用于作为物理对象的身体


而莱布尼茨用心物的和谐同步来回答这个问题,他主张:单子本质是精神是孤立的、封闭的、互不影响、互不作用的,但由于上帝率先的安排,整个世界的单于在发展过程中,是协调一致的物质只是单子的外部表现。这个有点复杂,我是这么理解的:你所感觉到的意识不是偶然的,而是已经被预设的,而物质是精神的外在也就是物质表现(有点像代码的意思),它们只不过按照一定的程序这样表现了(即被你感觉到了),和谐统一,心物的相互作用就完成了。还是有够麻烦的,咱们万能的剃刀原理又派上用场了,为了解释心灵是存在说了一大堆单子什么的,还不如把意识看成一种可观察的物理属性,这样心物就不是性质上根本不同的实体,从而就可以合理地解释心物互动的问题,而不会陷入非物理的属性何以能够影响物理属性的困惑。


随着现代医学的发展,人们知道,人的大脑受损后,记忆、性格等都可能发生改变,这样一来唯物主义理论就更占了上风。


这样来讲,意识并不是什么特别的存在而是物质的作用,意识就不是人类特有的了,那么前面提到的毒气室里的猫的问题又该怎样理解?计算机也可以有意识喽,会不会对实验观察有影响?又会不会有一天,机器人足够强大有了意识可以脱离人的控制?


Tips:笛卡尔就是那位提出“我思故我在”的哲学家兼数学家,他是典型的二元论者,但因他承认了心灵的存在,也可以说他是唯心主义者,但不是凭这句话,因为这句话属认识论范畴不是本体论。另外,不知道大家怎样理解“我思故我在”这句话,如果认为是“我思考所以我存在”的话就太不求甚解了。

     他认为应该用“怀疑一切”的眼光看问题,我们可以对外在世界加以怀疑,可以对自我怀疑,对思想的对象怀疑,但就是不能对“我在怀疑”这件事加以怀疑。“我思故我在”是笛卡尔哲学的出发点,这里的“我”是会思想的心灵,由此,他证明了心灵的存在。解释起来就是当我怀疑一切事物的存在时,我却不用怀疑我本身的思想,因为此时我唯一可以确定的事就是我自己思想的存在


参考资料:《图解哲学》

参考网址:http://www.philosophy.org.cn/Subject_info.aspx?n=20090730104534590863

          http://wenwen.soso.com/z/q64835000.htm



哲学探究与普及系列贴:
钻牛角尖的空泛言论?哲学探究与普及之一:什么是哲学

上帝掷不掷骰子?哲学探究与普及之二:哲学与科学的关系

是庄子还是蝴蝶?哲学探索与普及之三:哲学一直讨论的问题(1)

我思故我在?哲学探究与普及之三:哲学一直讨论的问题(2)

善有善报?哲学探究与普及之三:哲学一直讨论的问题(3)

因为所以科学道理!哲学探究与普及之四:哲学怎么想问题(1)

口水仗是怎样炼成的!哲学探究与普及之四:哲学怎么想问题(2)

上帝啊你在哪里?哲学探究与普及之五:宗教与哲学(1)

上帝,你在我心里!哲学探究与普及之五:宗教与哲学(2)

善有善报?哲学探究与普及:哲学一直讨论的问题(3)
发表于 2010-8-2 16:12 | 显示全部楼层
好文,我觉得物质与心灵是同时存在的
心灵存在于更微小的物质层面……好吧,一句话说不清~~不扯了
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发表于 2010-8-3 01:44 | 显示全部楼层
很喜欢爱徒这个系列,加油!
另外,我问个问题,你们讨论下:是“我思故我在”还是“我在故我思”?
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-8-4 17:22 | 显示全部楼层
回复 3# dlq
你所谓的“我在故我思”是什么意思。“当我怀疑一切事物存在的存在时,我却不怀疑我自己的存在,因为我一定是存在的”? 听着很别扭啊
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发表于 2010-8-4 17:26 | 显示全部楼层
“我思故我在”还是“我在故我思”?



     很难回答啊...想着头都痛了...
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发表于 2010-8-5 17:10 | 显示全部楼层
回复 4# 爱徒


    不是这样,你查下人择原理
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-8-5 18:18 | 显示全部楼层
那么你的意思是,这个宇宙,我们观察、思考的宇宙,由于无数的巧合正好变成现在的这个样子,而这样子又正好有很适合生命的诞生,然后才有了我们来讨论它?也就是正因为我们存在了我们才能思考的意思?
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发表于 2010-8-5 19:20 | 显示全部楼层
回复 7# 爱徒


    差不多~~
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发表于 2010-8-5 19:28 | 显示全部楼层
如果大家看不懂我可以给大家翻译一下

Philosophy has been to discuss the issues (2): materialVSmind


In art works, the existence of the soul has always been paramount, it carries our personality, memory, consciousness and other psychological state, it is considered immaterial, but long on behalf of our spiritual existence.
On understanding the relationship between mind and matter are three theoretical schools: mind-matter dualism, idealism, materialism.


Dualism that mind and matter are two different exist, spiritualism and materialism that the other side were not really exist, but their effect is dependent on its own.
Beginning of contact, most of us accept dualism, the existence of material no doubt, but awareness and substance are different but there are, after all, we have our own unique personality, way of thinking, is the sense of us different, equally is also important.
This issue came up, consciousness and matter are independent existence, but they also have relevance, then how they interact it?


For this issue, many mathematicians are interested.


Descartes that themind is a kind of existence can be independent, do not occupy the space of non-physical entity, he thinks heart Wu can be directly generated Xianghuzuoyong location was the pineal gland in the brain li, this time,人were not acceptable toa completely non-physicalmindcan cause the effect on the body as a physical object.


The harmony of Leibniz carefully synchronized object to answer this question, he advocated:list(nature spirit)is isolated, closed, independently of each other, and do not function, but because God first arrangement, the whole world Chanyu in the development process is coordinated,material list only the external manifestations.
This is a bit complicated, I was so understanding: the you that they feel the consciousness is not accidental, they already Bei default, while the material is a spiritual substance external Ye Jiu Shi Biao Xian (sort of like code means) that Zhibu Guo In accordance with certain procedures that showed (that is, you feel), harmony and unity, the interaction between mind and matter is completed.
Still have enough trouble, we also sent on the principle of universal use of the razor, and to explain the existence of mind that a lot of what list, not as the consciousness as
a kind of observable physical properties, such mind and matter is not fundamentally different nature of the entity, which can reasonably explain the interaction between mind and matter the problem, not into how non-physical properties can affect the physical properties of the confusion.


With the development of modern medicine, people know that the human brain was damaged, memory, personality and so may change, so to more materialist theory prevailed.


This concerned, in particular the existence of consciousness is not material but the role of human consciousness is not unique, then the previously mentioned gas chambers in the cat problem and how should we understand?
Computers can also be woven conscious, will not affect the experimental observations?
Will not one day, robots can be strong enough to have a sense out of human control?


Tips: Descartes is the man that "I think therefore I am" the philosopher and mathematician, he is a typical dualist, but he acknowledged the existence of the soul, it can be said that he is an idealist, but not with this words, because this sentence is epistemological not ontological category.
Also, I do not know how to understand, "I think therefore I am", that is, if that is "I think therefore I am" then on the very superficial understanding of.

     He believes that should "doubt everything" perspective, we can be doubt in the world outside, can self-doubt, the object of suspicion of thought, but that is not right, "I suspect that" this matter should be suspected.
"I think therefore I am" is the starting point of Cartesian philosophy, where "I" would be thought of mind, thus, he proved the existence of soul.
Explained up as
:"When I doubt the existence of all things, I have no doubt my own thinking, because the only sure thing at this time I was thinking of my own existence".


Reference: "graphic Philosophy"

Reference URL:http://www.philosophy.org.cn/Subject_info.aspx?n=20090730104534590863

         
http://wenwen.soso.com/z/q64835000.htm

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发表于 2010-8-6 16:42 | 显示全部楼层
可以想下痴呆患者群体(脱离于正常社会,单独存在,如小岛上)的意识与其所存在的物质世界之间的关系,可以找一个突破口
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